that is bad !!
dave, has jehovah's witnesses society proved itself by what it teaches, to love man and god and wife and child and to act for the betterment of all?
which one of these ways mentioned does the society use?
Dear Jang,
Thank for your help I've use your site often there is some really good stuff on it. I've mail some of your material to witnesses that I know.
I like to use the stuff that doesn't talk about JWs maybe they will read it. I send that the first mailing and the second I send more specific material. Trying to keep their mind open.
what is the spiritual paradise and when did it come into exitence?.
what did george gangas say about it?
What is the spiritual paradise and when did it come into exitence?
What did George Gangas say about it?
when i was a bethelite 1974-76 the evening meals were what we called free-seating (no asigned seating).. i sat at a table with (gb member)george gangas.
he would regularly have questions that he would ask the younger brothers (kind of a bible trivia).. but being that i was only baptized 2 or 3 years i didn't want to answer questions, but i had one i wanted to asked him.. what is this spiritual paradise that the society keeps talking about?.
when i asked him he choked on his soup, and said he didn't know.. i felt bad that he didn't know.. about 2 days latter i sit at his table and basically the same brothers are their.
Dear Mishnah,
I see you do you home work. If you go back and read my Appeal post a little more carefully you will understand why I'm making an appeal read all my entries please.
I have served as an elder in several(4) congregations 2 congregations in Connecticut and 2 in California.
I've worked in bethel at the Bindery sewing book together,checker, and demolition when they bought the Towers hotel and since my user name gives you my name, you probably can check it out.
I've been on committees to df so called apostates.
Followed instructions from the legal dept. in handling so called apostates.
What I said about Gangas is true and what I said about Schroeder is true.
Also read my post about Mind control you might find something in that post that you feel does't match up. I would like to hear more of your observations.
when i was a bethelite 1974-76 the evening meals were what we called free-seating (no asigned seating).. i sat at a table with (gb member)george gangas.
he would regularly have questions that he would ask the younger brothers (kind of a bible trivia).. but being that i was only baptized 2 or 3 years i didn't want to answer questions, but i had one i wanted to asked him.. what is this spiritual paradise that the society keeps talking about?.
when i asked him he choked on his soup, and said he didn't know.. i felt bad that he didn't know.. about 2 days latter i sit at his table and basically the same brothers are their.
Dear seeker,
You are correct about Gangas asking everybody that question.
But if you check he must of started asking people what is the spiritual paradise after or around 1975 which is when i asked him.
In fact about 8 or 10 years after I had left bethel he ask me the very same question I asked him about the spiritual paradise, and then proceeded to give my familly and I this long explantion (he didn't recognize me (who could blame him) ).
He also ask and answer a question about the covenants.
So he must have asked other GB members or studied up on the S.P. after I ask him the question in 75.
The point: If the spiritual paridise is so real a GB should not have choked on his soup,and said I don't know.
when i was a bethelite 1974-76 the evening meals were what we called free-seating (no asigned seating).. i sat at a table with (gb member)george gangas.
he would regularly have questions that he would ask the younger brothers (kind of a bible trivia).. but being that i was only baptized 2 or 3 years i didn't want to answer questions, but i had one i wanted to asked him.. what is this spiritual paradise that the society keeps talking about?.
when i asked him he choked on his soup, and said he didn't know.. i felt bad that he didn't know.. about 2 days latter i sit at his table and basically the same brothers are their.
When I was a bethelite 1974-76 the evening meals were what we called free-seating (no asigned seating).
I sat at a table with (GB member)George Gangas. He would regularly have questions that he would ask the younger brothers (kind of a Bible trivia).
But being that I was only baptized 2 or 3 years I didn't want to answer questions, but I had one I wanted to asked him.
What is this Spiritual Paradise that the Society keeps talking about?
When I asked him he choked on his soup, and said he didn't know.
I felt bad that he didn't know.
About 2 days latter I sit at his table and basically the same brothers are their. And so I say I have another question, but this time another brother(who was there for the first question) say emphatically "Only If It's Upbuilding".
The question was about slander.
I asked "If we tell the truth can it be called Slander?
I don't remember his reply to that one, but I asked it to Albert D. Schroeder,and he said istill could be callled slander.
Replies anyone.
that is bad !!
dave, has jehovah's witnesses society proved itself by what it teaches, to love man and god and wife and child and to act for the betterment of all?
which one of these ways mentioned does the society use?
To Fred,
You used a double negative,:
"You will accomplish nothing"
Does that mean I will accomplish something???? :-))
that is bad !!
dave, has jehovah's witnesses society proved itself by what it teaches, to love man and god and wife and child and to act for the betterment of all?
which one of these ways mentioned does the society use?
I want to thank everyone for their imput. It's a lot of reading I know.
Special thanks to RedhorseWomen, those were a lot of good points.
Their seems to be a lot of serious thinkers here.
I'm trying very hard to say the right things to help some of my freinds who are still JW's. But the wall the Society has errected takes a good deal of skill to climb to get thru.
I will use any imput I can.
that is bad !!
dave, has jehovah's witnesses society proved itself by what it teaches, to love man and god and wife and child and to act for the betterment of all?
which one of these ways mentioned does the society use?
This is an email that was sent to me from a dear freind who I sent some information on mind control. I known him for about 30 yrs.we were good friends, he still is a JW even after experiencing a lot of injustice from the elders. He a very nice person.
Please tell let me know what you think of his email refutation.
Thought Reform
David, even Jehovah uses Thought Reform. He uses it for good ON HIMSELF to keep to righteousness. Look at Eph 6:4 AND BE VERY CAREFUL HOW YOU INTERPRET THESE WORDS....And YOU, fathers, do not be irritating YOUR children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah. I warned you to be careful. Let's examine those words very carefully. It is so important. In the preceding verses, Jehovah advises us to live and enjoy life by (that is, only by) following righteous guidelines that guide our thinking and thus govern our conduct. He first advises husbands and wives --NOT how to act-- but how to think of each other, to best encourage care and love for each other. Then he advises children how to consider their parents -- and why so -- because it will work out for their own best good: That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth. Lastly he advises parents to teach, INSTRUCT (not force) their children in righteousness so that loving parents will be preparing the children to live a good, righteous life. IN ALL THE PRECEDING verses God lovingly encourages (not forces) us to consider forming our mental attitude so that it motivates us to conduct that benefits everyone -- our loving partners, our parents and our children -- and thus our own happiness and comfort. HE NEVER EVEN MENTIONED FORCING ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING. Therefore bringing children up "in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah" is not forcing their minds by mind control -- look how simple it is -- he is saying to teach them the way to control themselves THE SAME WAY JEHOVAH CONTROLS HIMSELF -- THE DISCIPLINE AND MIND-CONTROL THAT JEHOVAH USES ON HIMSELF -- THE MIND-CONTROL OF (I.E. BY, USED BY) JEHOVAH. He directs his purpose and actions by considering the principles, Nowhere is there a suggestion that we should CONTROL the minds of our kids. We are teaching them, giving them guidance, not rules.
The whole point here is that mental control and discipline is not necessarily bad. Jehovah uses it -- ON HIMSELF. Get the point?
To control hims Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform
Who is Mr. Lifton? What was his purpose in writing this? Is he a deprogrammer? Let me ask you as a parent this question: Is it a good thing to take a righteously inclined child and deprogram -remove- those motivations so that the child operates with total freedom? Anyone totally free of all restrictions can raise up hate, fear in others and destruction without limit. That is BAD !! Principles are necessary to live happy lives. I ask you again, what is the goal of this author? In deprogramming people he is actually forcing HIS programming into them -- or else he is taking everything from them and then leaving them with NOTHING.
I didn't say, "Ignore his thoughts." or "He is wrong." I am saying "Be careful to understand his aims, be careful to use his insight properly."
Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world -- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes little more than an exclusive cult.
Right as rain. Now tell me, how does one evaluate whether a cult is adding value or subtracting value from humanity ... and ... how do you tell if a cult is the truth?
You can tell by it's results and by its proofs. Dave, has Jehovah's Witnesses society proved itself by what it teaches, to love man and God and wife and child and to act for the betterment of all? Hasn't the history and goals of the society PROVED that Jehovah is behind it? Doesn't the society strain to keep to fairness, honesty, goodness AND adhere as best as possible to Jah's Bible?
Besides, there is one small semantic error here I have to correct. We are not a cult because, by the English definition of the word 'cult', that is a group that follows one man, a leader. Can you answer which single man is the leader of the Witnesses? No? Not exactly? Then technically we are not a cult.
Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the same time pose the gravest of human threats.
What is the "'gravest of human threats" that the society presents to the world. Is it that we will live in peace in perfect health and happiness forever? That we should love one another and take care of each other and forgive each other? That we have the obligation to invite everyone to enjoy those terrible evils? Perhaps the threat is that mankind should be free of crime, disease, hunger, suffering, death, old age, poverty, hate and war. You have to judge a tree by it's fruits.
(a brief outline)
MILIEU CONTROL
David, dear brother. Many of these concepts listed below are not the characteristics of control in a cult per se (by itself), they are plain good principles used in everyday life to keep things proper and safe. Example: A (good) policeman ENFORCES the law; he insures peace. He is not a Nazi controller trained to force humanity to strictly obey every decree of the totalitarian overlords. Come on, guy. Get real. Use some common sense. Yes, these are 'cult' characteristics, but not solely 'cult'. They are not necessarily evil. You and Marion used some of them to help raise Spencer an Lotus to become good people.
The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment
Ok, so? Entertaining and spreading bad thoughts often inflames bad desires that, when they are acted upon, ruin things for all of us. Is it bad to require members not to swear, state immoral or deadly intentions, to spread hate, to be sexually suggestive, to speak in a way that glorifies immorality, crime or making others suffer?
If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication
Tell me you never disciplined Lotus or Spencer by some punishment. Did that make you evil? Is your family a 'cult'?
Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy
Control? Does the society 'control' us -- no. We are able to do as we please. The society only ADVISES us and encourages us. On the other hand, we don't 'control' the society either. They have the right to say "He's not one of us." It's only fair. Use your noggin. The Jamestown suicide was a CONTROLLED community. They drank the cyanide-Kool-Aid AT GUNPOINT. The vast tropical forest insured no escape from the camp. The society does NOT control us !!!! We don't live in communes.
Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure
Which one of these ways mentioned does the society use? NONE. Look, we are in the world, work in it, live in it, go out in service in it, visit our worldly family members in it, LIVE in it, etc. Where are we prevented, physically prevented and isolated? Where, David, where?
Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and psychologically--for one to leave
Increasingly intense? Increasingly isolated? Extremely difficult physically (and psychologically) for one to leave? David, what are you thinking. People walk out of the truth each day. Once you leave, nobody bothers you anymore. Just say, "I want out." and GO. Are you even thinking in any way that this stuff applies to the society? Just what are you trying to say in sending me this as an explanation of your stand?
Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them"
Big bionic deal. When isn't it us vs. them in ANYTHING, cult or not. This item is garbage.
Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)
Genius! Genius! Why in heck do people join anything? TO IMPROVE! The contention of any organization is improvement -- knowledge (schools,college), money (your job, knucklehead), body form (exercise shops), entertainment (movies, camping, beach clubs). An organization that claims to teach one what God wants can do nothing but encourage 'the process of individual change (of personality)" This isn't brain surgery. This author is an idiot.
MYSTICAL MANIPULATION (Planned spontaneity)
Extensive personal manipulation
Another word for that is personal attention. Loving concern and aid. One on one guidance. Making sure the knowledge is understood. (I didn't say forced. First you learn, then you know, THEN and only then can you make a considered decision.)
Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated
If he means that the knowledge one gains should motivate him to act accordingly, he's right on the money. Look, knucklehead, the purpose of knowledge is to impart to a person the ability to USE that knowledge for a purpose. No change means a useless work.
Totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative
Who is our totalist leader? What man? Russell? Knorr? Freund? Hershel? Heck, I'll bet most witnesses don't even know the name of our current president. Maybe this applies to the anointed 'mystic leaders'. Yeah. All 8000 of them.
The "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)
But use common sense. If there is a true path, then IT IS THE TRUE PATH. How can one argue with truth and win? You CAN win if the truth isn't really truth. Now tell me, what aspect of the truth is wrong and prove it.
The individual then develops the psychology of the pawn, and participates actively in the manipulation of others
Do we individual witnesses act like 'pawns'? Does Jehovah give us hard and fast RULES which we have to obey exactly -- or does he give us broad principles (and explains the important reasons for those principles) and then sets us free to use our own talent and ability and decisions. Knowing that we should go door to door and why we should is NOT forcing us to go. The elders do not "FORCE" us to sit quietly at each meeting. That is a politeness we adhere to IF we what to learn. Nobody forces anybody in the truth. Want to leave? Go! Many people do. It's your free choice. But if you love righteousness and God and truth, THOSE elements will force you to stay. Not the society.
The leader who becomes the center of the mystical manipulation (or the person in whose name it is done) can be sometimes more real than an abstract god and therefore attractive to cult members
What ? What leader? Who?
Legitimizes the deception used to recruit new members and/or raise funds, and the deception used on the "outside world"
Deception? No, I have never found any here inside. I have found that, as the society honestly warned me, that all men are imperfect and sometimes it shows up at critical times. They also showed me two ways of dealing with it. Lovingly and angrily. I have my own choice. Isn't it better to act lovingly and thereby participate in trying to help the person making errors. He usually won't recognize your love for decades. But then...But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head." Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good (Rom 12:20-21)
THE DEMAND FOR PURITY
The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group)
Yep. everything is in black and white now. World bad, us good. That's why newcomers NEVER have a lick of trouble understanding how good people that would never steal, kill, swear -- do anything wrong -- may not make it through. Black and white my bionic foot!
One must continually change or conform to the group "norm"
NO! One must continue to work on himself. The 'norm' here NEVER changes.
Tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences
Psychologists use this to probe their patients. Parents use it to help instruct their children ("You did WHAT? HOW could you? I raised you better than that! Say you are sorry! NOW!!") Is this author saying that my mom was a bad person, a cult leader ??
Once a person has experienced the totalist polarization of good/evil (black/white thinking), he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality
Per earlier, we don't see polarized black and white. The society constantly teaches us to maintain a balance. The society teaches us to have empathy and understanding for others, even people in the world and especially those we see door to door and our families and business acquaintances so that we always leave a good taste.. This line item doesn't apply to us either.
The radical separation of pure/impure is both within the environment (the group) and the individual
Run that one by me again in English,please.
Ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming
TO HIMSELF, then to God. We don't run to the elders for absolution.
CONFESSION
Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself
Do you think that applies to our society? Do any of these line items? I don't think so. Not one of them. We don't do confessions.
Sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change
Is an act of symbolic self-surrender
Makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility
A person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss
Often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position)
"The more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"
SACRED SCIENCE
The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence
Isn't that the vanilla definition of an ideology? This guy is giving us reasoning that goes round in a circle
Questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited
Questioning, no. BUT NOTICE that questioning also means getting an answer. It doesn't mean an instant answer. Jehovah answers all in HIS time. Haven't your past questions been answered --- and if the questions you have now aren't answered right away, will someone die -- or is it more intelligent to keep the question quietly alive and observe what Jah does? Are you impatient? Remember, Jehovah painfully tolerated his creation to be subjected to evil for 60 centuries. Moreover, he underwent the searing pain of having to allow his precious son to be tortured by tiny ants he could crush in an instant -- so that some could be rescued. He allowed for questions to be answered -- over 60 centuries. Are you so impatient?
A reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine
Oh yeah. Remember and revere Saint Russell. And Pope Knorr the first. Any other comment?
Offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology
Did you ever notice that the truth is ONLY young kids? No grownups at all!! Only the elders are old. Get a life!
LOADING THE LANGUAGE
The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliche (thought-stoppers)
Repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon
"The language of non-thought"
Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase
He's right. We have words for "don't-calls", sheep, lamb, pioneer, Bethel, etc. In fact, my engineering degree, by this guy's definition is a cult certificate. We say capacitor, induction, Faraday effect, Miller effect, feedback loop, oscilloscope, tank circuit, and on and on. We electrical engineers are a cult ! Holy cow!
NO! Words represent concepts. We witnesses deal with concepts that the general world isn't interested in. Yes we have a jargon. It's verbal short cuts, but it is not thought-stopping.
DOCTRINE OVER PERSON
Every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it
Huh? No!
The pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience
Nope again. I say that based on 27 YEARS of experiencing the reverse.
If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly
YES, YES, YES and especially so when the teacher is egotistical and stupid. Most of the other members I have found are eager to help find an answer. The only problem is when the questioner will not accept a valid answer because he will have to give in a point -- or when the questioner never WANTS to hear the answer -- or when the answer is exactly what he wanted to hear and yet the condition is not immediately improved and he exalted for explaining the problem. WAIT ON JEHOVAH. Is the God who created the stars and the heavens of the heavens so weak and/or uninterested that he will let his system crumble and people DIE because of some small error?
The underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth"
Quote: "If you don't believe me, believe my miracles." Now tell me what doctrine is more real than his miracles?
The experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt
Who is teaching that?
One is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil
Doubts are a reflection of either a lack of knowledge or of a person's decision to want the pleasures obtainable by not following the principles. One's heart can lead the brain -- and beware, the heart is treacherous !
When doubt arises, conflicts become intense
When doubt arises, there is no conflict. IN that case we seek knowledge to eliminate or explain away the doubt.
Dave , I have to quit here. I can't take any more of this garbage. I just cannot see how in tarnation it applies to the proper conduct of the truth. Oh, sure, there are men in the truth who are not conducting themselves properly. These should be forgiven and lovingly encouraged. They will decide their own fate. You, you David Wiltshire, have been instructed far more than most of us and have seen both good and bad operate in this organization -- and I am sure have witnessed the results.
If what you have found, Jehovah agrees with, but Jehovah allows to continue, stand back and watch. If Jehovah disagrees, you had better stand back anyway. The real truth organization runs not on knowledge and law and principle and ideology, it runs on LOVE. It is not love to yell others are making mistakes and slap them silly. It is love to be patient. It is even more than love to accept hurt and allow wrong when we are not the ones authorized to correct it.
Jehovah God put many different psychological processes into us humans. He designed them in -- that they will operate in a perfect world for our benefit. Now this isn't a perfect world. True CULT leaders CAN take advantage of these psychological mechanisms for their own advantage. That doesn't mean those psych. mechanisms are inherently BAD. It means only that evil people can and do misuse them. God CAN RIGHTEOUSLY use them for our good.
Look, your boss would be dead wrong if he slapped your face at work in order to settle a disagreement about work. On the other hand, a parent can properly slap a misbehaving 2-year old whining child.
Just because an effect, a technique exists and is used by evil men, does not condemn the effect or technique AND does not mean God cannot use it properly.
PLEASE BE CAREFUL
DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE
Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist
"Being verses nothingness"
Impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed
One outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group
Fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their transformation, for something bad will happen to them
The group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.
the first question is:.
i ask you would paul even think of doing such as thing as the wt has done here?????
i asked them not to keep double-talking me but to just come out and say what the charges are.
Thank for the imput. My purpose for appeal was so that I could expose more Jws to information that would otherwise not be the case. Since the Org. has implanted great fear in its members to read anything that is critical them. I going to be DF'd even if they allow an apeal for sure, I have no doubt.
But I was an elder and had been instucted by the Orgs. legal dept. year ago on how to deal with this same situation. It latter worked for my good because as the years went by I could see these so called "apostates" points. Which help me to be in this situation now. And besides I don't want to make it too easy for the Org. they deserve a hard time for all the damage they do to families with their DF'n policies.
O by the way they were suppose to announce my DF'n monday. So I went to the meeting sat in the front row af the hall and no annoucement. Their was no mention of an appeal either, so they must be regrouping.
again thank all of you for your impute.
the first question is:.
i ask you would paul even think of doing such as thing as the wt has done here?????
i asked them not to keep double-talking me but to just come out and say what the charges are.
This is my letter to apeal the decision to disfellowship.
David Wiltshire 06/20/01
Sunnyvale, CA
Email> [email protected]
To the Sunnyvale East congregation (California)
I formally make and appeal for a retrial on the basis set forth below, please give it your careful consideration.
Baptism
*** w70 5/15 309 Your Conscience Toward Jehovah ***
(1) Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God? And have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from him and through his ransomer, Christ Jesus?
(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God’s Word as his holy spirit makes it plain?
These were my baptism questions that I answered yes to!!
I was not baptized after 1985(11/04/72) with the new questions that in effect makes your baptism not just in the name of the Father and the Son but in the name of the Watchtower also. See question for baptism below.
*** w85 6/1 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
Maybe we should rewrite Matt. 28:19b to say “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and God’s spirit directed organization”
I ask you would Paul even think of doing such as thing as the WT has done here????? see scripture below
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 1:13-16 ***
13 The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for YOU, was he? Or were YOU baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful I baptized none of YOU except Cris'pus and Ga'ius, 15 so that no one may say that YOU were baptized in my name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Steph'a·nas. As for the rest, I do not know whether I baptized anybody else
Secret trials (where injustice can be carried out with little fear of appearing before others as being Hypocrites see awake article below
*** g81 1/22 16-17 Searching Out Legal Roots ***
Searching Out Legal Roots
“Speedy and Public Trial”
Guidelines for judicial procedure in the United States are found in the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution. “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial . . . to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him.” Did justice in Bible times employ these guidelines?(what about the WT)
Indeed it did. Criminal trials were doubtless much speedier in Israel than they are at present in countries such as the United States, where clogged courts and elaborate procedure give rise to many delays. Since the local court was situated at the city gates, there was no question about the trial being public! (Deut. 16:18-20) No doubt the public trials helped influence the judges toward carefulness and justice, qualities that sometimes vanish in secret star-chamber hearings. What about witnesses?
Witnesses in Bible times were required to testify publicly. For this reason they were warned not to be influenced in their testimony by the pressure of public opinion “so as to turn aside with the crowd in order to pervert justice.” Perjury was not punished with a jail term, but with whatever punishment the false witness had sought to bring upon the defendant—even death!—Ex. 23:2; Deut. 19:15-21.
I was not allowed any legal representation, nor was I allowed to tape record the proceedings, but the committee was allowed to have 5 members and one was taking notes the whole time.
If this Judicial meeting were to be shown on television what do you think all fair-minded people would think? O boy I can’t wait to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. What a reproach it would be. And think of how you would feel if it were made public in this way.
I was also told that there would be only 3 brothers on the committee (Larry Casto, John Pickering, and Don Pickering)
Instead there were 5 (2 additional Greg Castile, and Michael Earley).
When asked to meet with you brothers by Larry Casto I agreed to meet Monday (6/11/01) at 6pm. On Thursday after the service meeting I was approached by brothers Don Pickering and Larry Casto, and was told that they wanted to talk to me now. I said to wait till our mutually agreed time. But I agreed on the condition that we not make it private but to ask any questions in public, which they reluctantly agreed to.
After I answered their questions directly, I was told by Larry Casto that Monday would now be a Judicial meeting with me.
I asked Larry if I would be allowed to bring legal representation he said that it would be allowed.
Larry clearly did not follow proper theocratic procedure. Since when does one elder decide to form a committee? It is the body of elders and not one man who decides to form a committee, unless there is some change in procedure I am unaware of, and the society is going backwards and not tacking forward.
Friday morning (6/8/01) Larry Casto and John Pickering came to my work place to inform me that I would not be allowed any legal representation. I asked them what specifically were the charges for this Judicial hearing. They would not answer me directly as to what the charges were.
Instead every time I asked him what the charges were John would ask me “What do you think the charges are ????”
I asked them not to keep double-talking me but to just come out and say what the charges are. Finally they came up with “speaking against the Organization”
I then proceeded to write on a piece of paper the charge of speaking against the organization and ask them to sign it. They would not, I ask them several times to just sign the paper stating the charge, and every time the refused.
We proceeded to agree to have the Judicial hearing (secret star-chamber hearing) on Friday 06\15\01.
Just after they were leaving my shop I remembered something so I ran out to Larry and John who were just getting in their car. I asked them:
Why are Pedophiles treated better than someone who disagrees with the Organization?
I then related that there was a brother (in their congregation who’s name I will not mention) who committed grave acts of incest with a minor and was now a registered sex offender. He was just reproved, later moved to another congregation in Santa Cruz and now is being used there.
I then related what John Pickering himself had told me just before he got appointed Elder. Namely that an Elder who was on your body was back to his old tricks again and was fondling some of the very young sisters. John then proceeded to lie right to my face and denied he ever told me that. He lied before Jehovah, Larry, and myself, stating that, he never told me anything like that. But if you’re an elder I guess that makes it all right.
Side note for John:
John remember when we went to San Francisco and after visiting Alcatraz, and I was sitting at the water fountain in front of Giradelli’s chocolate store. You then came over to me as I was sitting alone, and out of the blue you told me about this Elder.
I said to make sure you tell the C.O.
John tell the body the truth!!! Come on John fess-up.
The point I am making is this:
How can a person who lied to me right to my face, and you brothers must know it is true, sit as a judge, he should be disqualified.
Sunday 06/10/01 After the WT study I approached John P. and asked again what are the charges. I wanted to be sure, so as to not have any spears being shot out of the fog at me.
At this time Larry, Don, and John met with me said the charge was apostasy, not the dictionary’s definition, but the WT own special definition found in the Reasoning book. They read me the Reasoning book’s definition.
I also asked who would be on the Judicial committee and was told that only Larry Casto, Don Pickering, and John Pickering would be on the committee. This later proved to be a lie, (or excuse me half- truth).
Friday 06/15/01 “The Judicial meeting”
The tone of the meeting was very weird to say the least.
At first I was asked to sit with 5 brothers (3 in front and 1 to each side of me). The first thing Larry asked was whether anybody was taping this meeting. I said they could search me if they liked they declined (my lawyer told me not to secretly tape the meeting).
Larry told me to sit down and asked me if I was nice and relaxed, I said “OK and that I was”.
First I was asked, what I think is a standard question, that I’m sure comes from the Society to convict a dissenter, and make it real easy to disassociate someone so as to avoid any legal red tape. I used to be an elder so I know some of those questions. I used them myself at the direction of the Society’s legal department. If you can’t answer anything but a unqualified yes to these questions you get booted out. That way the elder don’t have to go to Bible to prove the Society right and the dissenter wrong, which is very hard to do, because the Society’s claim to be God’s Organization is not based on facts. But solely on their own interpretation of the Bible (how does that prove anything).
And so the trial was extremely prejudicial, to convict but not to find what the truth is.
I was read with zeal the evidence that they had accumulated to convict me.
And when I asked questions of all the elders all I got were blank
stares and no answers. They were not acting like brave men, They were afraid to, it was a pathetic sight. The only one that even came close to answering my many questions was Larry Casto, and all he could say after every question I asked was “You tell us”, “you tell us” that’s it!!! Boy if it could only have been on TV!
It’s a real shame to see grown men in a Judicial capacity act so unmanly.
It seemed as if they were using some kind of mind control thought stopping technique and were afraid to listen to me.
Any way if you feel that this is justice then the 1981 Awake quoted in the beginning and again below, is just giving it lip service.
“Speedy and Public Trial”
“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial . . . to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him.” Did justice in Bible times employ these guidelines?
Indeed it did. Criminal trials were doubtless much speedier in Israel than they are at present in countries such as the United States, where clogged courts and elaborate procedure give rise to many delays. Since the local court was situated at the city gates, there was no question about the trial being public! (Deut. 16:18-20) No doubt the public trials helped influence the judges toward carefulness and justice, qualities that sometimes vanish in secret star-chamber hearings. What about witnesses?
Witnesses in Bible times were required to testify publicly. For this reason they were warned not to be influenced in their testimony by the pressure of public opinion “so as to turn aside with the crowd in order to pervert justice.” Perjury was not punished with a jail term, but with whatever punishment the false witness had sought to bring upon the defendant—even death!—Ex. 23:2;
You have to live with yourself.
In the morning when you get up and you wash your face and look in the mirror what do you see? A brave man? A man who love’s the truth? Or a man that can’t even answer simple questions because they expose, what he can’t bring himself to face?
Jesus said “and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” John 8:32
Are you really free or are you enslaved to an Organization?
Can you really study the Bible and freely talk to others what you are finding in it’s pages.
Yes you can as long as you don’t say anything that different from what the Organization says. And if you do say something different the Org will smite you with disfellowshipping, and brand you as a demonized apostate. And make your family who are JW’s shun you or they will be DF’d too.
Wow is that the freedom Jesus meant?
Or could it be a form of mind control?
There are 7 pages to this document and I have mailed some copies to Headquarters.
